E4: Lust – The Sin That Built an Industry Part 2

From sacred temples to OnlyFans, brothels to bandwidth, this week we're tracing the provocative — and powerful — history of lust as both taboo and tool. In Part 2 of our LUST deep-dive, Jayson and Rebecca take you on a journey through the rise, repression, resilience, and radical autonomy of sex workers and porn creators throughout the ages.

✝️ Why did sacred sex in the temples of Ishtar terrify early Christians?
 🏛️ How did ancient Rome license debauchery — and still shame those who sold it?
 💄 What can 19th-century courtesans teach us about power, pleasure, and politics?
 📹 And how has porn evolved from illegal stag reels to smartphone saturation — reshaping intimacy, identity, and education in the process?

We explore the liberation and limitations of modern sex work in the digital age, the ethical minefields of porn, the feminist debates, the dangers of censorship, and the rise of amateur, authentic sex content reclaiming intimacy on its own terms.

👁️‍🗨️ From lust as a deadly sin to lust as survival, art, and protest — this episode peels back the layers on an industry built on desire and demonized by dogma.

Trigger warning:  non-consensual sex and sexual exploitation,  religious shame and guilt around sexuality, objectification and societal marginalization 

Check out our blog article for links to all of our research: https://thesanctuaryofsin.com/blogs/the-sanctuary-of-sin-podcast/e3-lust-the-sin-that-built-an-industry-part-2

Transcript

Rebecca: 0:19

So, moving on to segment two, the evolution of sex work and pornography. And of course, starting with sex work. So, Proverbs 6.25

Jayson: 0:38

So there's a running theory that many of the sins in the Bible are in direct opposition to other religious practices at the time. Ishtar, also known as Inanna and later Aphrodite, was the goddess of a great many things, the most famous being love, war, fertility and politics. It's been established by Herodotus that in around 430 BC she was celebrated in Babylon. In the histories by Herodotus it was written that her devotion, quote, compels every woman of the land to sit in the temple of Aphrodite and have intercourse with some stranger at least once in her life. Once a woman has taken her place there, she does not go away to her home before some stranger has cast money into her lap and had intercourse with her outside the temple. It does not matter what sum the money is, the woman will never refuse, for that would be a sin. The money being by this act made sacred. So she follows the first man who casts it and rejects no one. After their intercourse, having discharged her sacred duty to the goddess, she goes away to her home.

Rebecca: 1:51

I think it's worth noting that Herodotus, through reading some other bits and pieces that he wrote, came across as a bit of a racist against the Babylonian people. And I know we want to take away from this story, and I believe that the kind of rough story this is true, and that There was temple prostitutes. This was a thing that went on. I don't know if it happened probably in the exact way that he's describing as a kind of grumpy man that was going about and judging literally everything he's seen and writing about it disdainfully as came across in some of the other bits and pieces I read of his.

Jayson: 2:31

Aye, as with a lot of... stories from history, you've kind of got to take things with a wee bit of a pinch of salt.

Rebecca: 2:38

Think about who is writing it, what their motives are. Aye,

Jayson: 2:42

and what the vibe was at the time.

Rebecca: 2:45

Aye. Sacred prostitution was not only a form of worship and devotion, but was highly respected and celebrated. Prostitution, even sacred prostitution, was only a threat to Christianity and its potential to tempt people away to other prominent religions at the time. Thus became a So I think this is really relevant in, again, what we've been discussing and why things have came about. What purpose have they served? What problem have they solved?

Jayson: 3:17

If they managed to make people feel guilty or sinful about having sex, it then would potentially curb people being tempted to these other maybe seen as more fun religions if they thought there's eternal damnation on the line I

Rebecca: 3:40

think this is especially interesting when you take into the context of Christianity was not the biggest religion at this point it was kind of up and coming and it was how do religions grow through conversions so they're trying to tempt people away from their outstanding religions I think this is why eternal damnation was so at the forefront and why there were just so many sins out there. Through having a wee look into it, there's something like 640-odd different sins in the Bible, which is hilarious. It would be really interesting to see just how many of them could be traced back to trying to recruit more followers.

Jayson: 4:27

It kind of seems as though they went with a two-pronged attack with this. They either went down the route of the teachings or practices of these other religions are sinful or they appropriated them.

Rebecca: 4:46

Yeah, totally.

Jayson: 4:49

And that looks different depending on where in the world you are and what branch of Christianity was trying to take over. that particular area but there's you know so much christian tradition is actually just rooted in

Rebecca: 5:05

pagan and yeah

Jayson: 5:07

yeah these these kind of other older uh belief systems

Rebecca: 5:13

because they've had to adapt to where they were like they've had to let the people keep some of their old traditions in order for them to convert do you know like they've reached a kind of compromise

Jayson: 5:23

ah it's made made the transition much smoother and uh It's meant less like abrupt change into people's lives. And people don't generally like a lot of particularly fast change.

Rebecca: 5:37

Yeah. But I feel like this is one example where, you know, looking at what we have, it's hard to kind of appropriate prostitution into Christianity in terms of the fundamental values that are written within it. Like, adultery and you know all these things that just don't sit well i feel like this is a bit of a chicken and an egg situation do you know what came first is it like as we say that these kind of sins came about in answer to other prominent religions that existed in the day or is it that these things haven't been appropriated into christianity in those places because they were shitting at such

Jayson: 6:21

such odds with christian values

Rebecca: 6:23

yeah yeah It's quite interesting. It's one of them I think we'll never truly know, but yeah, it's interesting to think about.

Jayson: 6:32

Ancient Rome accepted prostitutes and brothels as just another part of life. Not only was sex work legal, regulated and taxed, but it wasn't hidden away from the rest of society. It was commonplace for brothels or lupinarium, to be on busy, often prominent streets, decorated with erotic art and the escort's name and prices written in chalk on the door. People even received a special license, licentious stupri, or license for debauchery. However, once a name was entered on the register of the ediles, it could never be removed, becoming a permanent stain against their name. Nor were prostitutes solely female. Men could also work as prostitutes. Roman society permitted same-sex relationships between men without a loss of standing or status and they're widely documented. It's a bit crazy to me how so many things that have been part of the big fights in the last hundred years were just normal. They were just a normal part of everyday life. In so many places around the world. And then somewhere along the line...

Rebecca: 7:52

I'm like, what happened?

Jayson: 7:56

It's like everybody just lost their minds and decided fun was off the table.

Rebecca: 8:01

Yep.

Jayson: 8:03

And that people were not allowed to just live as they want or need to live.

Rebecca: 8:11

Ancient Rome wouldn't have really been Christian, would it? Depends when, because that covers a massive time period, is the only thing. Yeah, so ancient Rome covers from 753 BC to 476 AD. So, like, over a thousand years. But

Jayson: 8:27

that's still a good while after Jesus died.

Rebecca: 8:30

Some of it is.

Jayson: 8:31

Yeah.

Rebecca: 8:32

Yeah.

Jayson: 8:34

That's still, like, you know, over 400 years after Jesus died.

Rebecca: 8:40

Aye, like, some of this was after fucking Augustine. But maybe they didn't have the same reach back then. I feel like that's been a few lifetimes worth to the place that it is now. Yeah, yeah. Even with the acceptance of sex work as a vital part of society, sex workers themselves were still vilified and shunned. They were not offered the same rights as other citizens and could not marry regular citizens, along with a whole host of other kind of...

Jayson: 9:08

Right, so it wasn't quite the...

Rebecca: 9:10

The glorified, yeah. Sex work itself was normalised, but sex workers weren't. There was still this stigma attached.

Jayson: 9:23

You could draw quite a direct comparison between that and porn nowadays, where porn itself is really pretty normalised. Most people sort of assume that everybody watches porn. Yeah. But it's fine for everybody to use that service. If you make porn. If you make porn. If you're a porn star or a porn actor, you are seen as dirty and not worthy of the same kind of level of respect as everybody else. Which, I mean, that in and of itself is outrageous. You know, vilify people who are providing a service that's so normalised and so many people participate in.

Rebecca: 10:19

And a part of everyday life and not even really something that's hidden much in the same way as it was back in ancient Rome.

Jayson: 10:28

Ancient Rome, really not quite all it was cracked up to be from that wee cursory

Rebecca: 10:32

glance at the start there. But I find it interesting though how some things just never change. there is always this like I think because sex is still seen as such a shameful act though people might utilise that service they still need someone to blame for it and it comes back to this you know it cannae be themselves it cannae be gods it needs to be the people that are providing that service if no society as a whole which is I feel a rabbit hole some people fall into quite often

Jayson: 11:09

aye it's It's like that old saying, history doesn't repeat, but it rhymes.

Rebecca: 11:15

Yeah,

Jayson: 11:17

totally. The same themes pop up time and time again, and while it might be over, the issue itself may have shifted slightly, the general kind of theme is the same.

Rebecca: 11:31

Yeah, people have always been people at the end of the day, no matter what time period they were existing in.

Jayson: 11:37

Yeah.

Rebecca: 11:39

So, looking forward, in the 19th and 20th centuries, sex workers weren't just surviving in the shadows. Many were thriving as significant, if controversial, figures in society. Women like Cora Perle in France or Belle Brasing in America weren't just providing services. They were cultural influencers before that term even existed. They were fashion icons, muses for artists and at times political players. Some high-end courtesans could command influence over powerful men, navigate circles of wealth and power and even set social trends. Their lives, while precarious, also afforded them a level of autonomy, education I think you've hit on there one of

Jayson: 12:28

the key reasons why sex workers in general have it so hard when it comes to the systems of authority. It's the independence that they are able to gain for themselves through this work that Is a threat. It threatens the whole structure of power.

Rebecca: 12:55

They're living outside the social norms. They're living outside this box that's been so carefully crafted and constructed and reinforced by all these different things. And there's people out there just pure chilling outside it, living their best life. And that cannae be left un...

Jayson: 13:16

Aye, they're kind

Rebecca: 13:17

of...

Jayson: 13:18

the shining example to everyone else that hey by the way you don't actually need to stay in this box they've told you you need to stay in and

Rebecca: 13:28

I think this is where things get confused I feel like there's quite a lot of controversy especially within sex worker movements themselves just from things that i've heard people speaking about about sex work being empowering and for me it is in terms of this stuff rather than over the work itself when you look at the history and you know sex workers have been at the forefront of being independent autonomous women in society holding jobs down when

Jayson: 13:58

when that wasn't allowed

Rebecca: 13:59

yeah like like running businesses owning land you know doing all these things that like were so just out of reach for other women at the time and i feel like in that way they have been a shining example throughout history of like what women can achieve like but this is why they've been so downtrodden and so oppressed because we've got a society that's trying to shun women and make women dirty and unclean and not as capable as men and just inferior to men in general. And then there's all these people that exist and they're just showing that up every day.

Jayson: 14:39

Their very existence and their independence is in protest to the system that exists round about

Rebecca: 14:48

them. Whether meant or not. And I feel like when your existence becomes a protest in that way... you are vulnerable to oppression, and we've seen that from a lot of other groups that, you know, have faced the issue of no fitting into this box, like, and standing out against it, even just by existing. No through choice.

Jayson: 15:10

Aye, and the system's so hell-bent on holding onto control at all costs that...

Rebecca: 15:18

Any deviation from the plan is a threat.

Jayson: 15:20

Yep. This visibility came with risks. Many societies pass moral purity laws targeting sex workers specifically. Despite this criminalisation and stigma, sex workers organised. In places like France, workers bandied together to demand better treatment, health protections and legal rights. In the US, madams often wielded surprising local power, helping to shape cities during periods of rapid urban expansion.

Rebecca: 15:49

it's inspiring how much power these women held within the societies they were a part of. Do you know, that for a job, for a profession, because, you know, that's not everybody's full life. It's just what they're doing to make money. Yeah. To affect every aspect of your life in the way that it does. I think it must be quite difficult to not become politically motivated in these positions, at least partially. Yeah.

Jayson: 16:19

Aye, I think as well when your very existence is so politicised, that will make it very challenging

Rebecca: 16:29

to

Jayson: 16:33

not be involved in the political side of it.

Rebecca: 16:36

So sex workers were, and still are, essential threads in the fabric of social history. They occupied a complicated but critical space, marginalised yet influential, criminalised entrepreneurial. Understanding their role during these periods reminds us that sex work has always been about more than just economics. It's about survival, resilience and sometimes even radical autonomy and a world designed to keep certain people powerless.

Jayson: 17:06

Now, fast forward to today. We're looking at the modern day sex work. The digital revolution has transformed almost every industry, and sex work is no exception. Platforms like OnlyFans, cam insights, and online escorting portals have opened the door for sex workers to operate with more autonomy than ever before. Workers can now set their own hours, market themselves, vet clients more safely and create income streams without relying on potentially exploitative intermediaries.

Rebecca: 17:42

Access has improved dramatically. Someone living in a rural area, someone managing a disability or someone who doesn't feel safe working in person can now connect with clients from their home. Digital tools like encrypted messaging, pre-screening platforms and online payment systems have made huge strides in reducing some of the dangers historically associated with sex work.

Jayson: 18:07

It feels like the playing field has been levelled. It's far more accessible now than it's ever been to people who... maybe traditionally this wouldn't have been an option for them.

Rebecca: 18:26

Yeah, I think technology has been really good for sex work in a lot of ways in that it has made it more accessible for people. Making it more bureaucratic as such has made it like, kind of easier to kind of keep track of and vet clients and it kind of get managed more in, like, a community sense and created a community as well.

Jayson: 18:48

Yeah, yeah. I think people having connections to other people in the industry is really important for their safety. Totally. And, you know, being able to... warn other sex workers about potentially dangerous clients and things like that is such a positive that's come out of this, where there are places for them online to speak. But it's not all good news. There's a very real tension. While technology has made sex work safer and more accessible, it's also altered the human, intimate element that so many workers and clients value. The screen creates distance, interactions can become transactional to the point of disconnection, many workers report a growing sense of isolation, endless DMs, content demands and algorithm games, but fewer genuine connections. Plus, platforms themselves can be fickle and dangerous. Content can be stolen, accounts can be deleted without warning, and workers are often at the mercy of corporate policies that they have no say in.

Rebecca: 20:09

I would say as well, one thing that for something like sex work that kind of exists in this kind of constant state and threat of becoming criminalised, you know, is... It itself, at least in Scotland, is decriminalised, but everything around it is, so it's quite easy to take a misstep in that direction with the kind of grey wording of the laws and stuff.

Jayson: 20:34

And how old the laws are as well. It feels as though it's been a deliberate attempt to keep things ambiguous so that there's room to...

Rebecca: 20:46

Make it fit.

Jayson: 20:48

Make it fit, room to... hurt people when they want to

Rebecca: 20:52

yeah definitely and i think you know having everything online you then have a paper trail that you wouldn't have done before um that could potentially be used against you if something like what we're just what we had said did come up or if the law changes

Jayson: 21:13

yeah

Rebecca: 21:15

yeah do you know there's there's all these platforms that are very much out for themselves and if things were to go a certain way there's

Jayson: 21:25

there's no saying what what data would be handed over to police and do you know who would be helping with investigations or whatever

Rebecca: 21:34

yeah so I think like and it is this kind of double edged sword where do you know it's made things safer in a lot of ways but unsafe in others and it's just being aware of that and how you progress through it And keep yourself safe within that system.

Jayson: 21:52

Aye, it feels as though it's kind of simultaneously opened the floodgates, but put people in a far more precarious position if things were to change.

Rebecca: 22:03

Yeah. And it's the same way, like, do you know, it's created a community, or it's added to a community. There was potentially a community that already existed, but it wasn't as, like... obvious because it wasn't online. It wasn't

Jayson: 22:16

as connected

Rebecca: 22:17

as it can be these days. Where it could be people from different countries connecting in a way that maybe wouldn't have in the past. But as more isolating, as more of the work moves online as opposed to being in person, which a lot of people prefer. If that's what's got them into that line of work in the first place, the kind of human connection and the relationship building. Not to say that kind of happened online, but there is...

Jayson: 22:44

It's much like what we saw throughout COVID, where people were isolated from friends and family but were able to do more things like FaceTime and video calls, Zoom, Skype, whatever.

Rebecca: 22:58

All the quizzes, oh my god.

Jayson: 23:00

So there was still this vast interconnectedness, however it was because you were missing that in-person physical contact and being able to actually see and touch and hold the people that you love.

Rebecca: 23:20

Yeah.

Jayson: 23:22

you felt so disconnected. So, like, do you know, I really, I can empathise with that situation. I think it's one that so many more people kind of are more familiar with now since COVID and all kind of having that experience.

Rebecca: 23:42

So ultimately, whether on the cobblestone streets of 19th century Paris or in the infinite scroll of today's OnlyFans feeds, sex workers continue to show us what resilience, adaptation and survival truly look like.

Jayson: 23:57

Pornography. Matthew 5.28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. When we think about pornography today, it's almost impossible to separate it from technology. From glossy high-production films to the endless stream of clips on your phones. But to understand how we got here, we need to go back. Way back.

Rebecca: 24:27

The word pornography actually comes from the Greek porne meaning prostitute and graphene meaning to write. Originally it wasn't about film or pictures at all. It referred to any artwork or literature depicting the lives of sex workers. Today of course we mainly associate it with visual media, videos, photos and increasingly user generated content.

Jayson: 24:51

The history of visual porn is almost as old as film itself. In 1896, the very first motion picture was publicly shown. And less than a year later, we had the first erotic one. A seven-minute short called Le Couché de la Mariée, or Bedtime for the Bride. It showed a woman undressing for bed while her groom peeked from behind a screen. The very next year, we got the first on-screen kiss. the famous 18-second Mary Irwin kiss. This tiny moment sparked outrage, particularly from the Catholic Church, which demanded censorship and moral reform. At the time, public kissing could actually get you arrested. I

Rebecca: 25:40

didn't even know that we had motion pictures from before the 1900s, never mind that they were at the stage of being publicly shown in 1896. Yeah, I

Jayson: 25:51

mean, we've even spoken to... see your grandparents and stuff and they were under the impression that the first films and things were the 1920s. So It's wild to think how far back that actually goes.

Rebecca: 26:08

Yeah. Like, that was certainly when they were popularised. Yeah. At least, do you know, in Britain and stuff, because this was in France, and I think they were one of the first places to kind of hold these public shows and films before anywhere else, but still, it's wild. It's mad to think it took, like, nearly 30 years before it was kind of... As widespread and as popular, yeah. Yeah. Things move so much quicker now than they did back then in terms of new technology. Aye. Aye. Like, it's wild to think what advances there's been for, like, 97 until now, for example, compared to then.

Jayson: 26:52

Aye, the rate of advancements is getting so much quicker.

Rebecca: 26:57

Yep. Wild to think that public kissing was, like, illegal back then as well.

Jayson: 27:03

Aye, that's...

Rebecca: 27:05

And then people showed it on a stage, which is wild. Cheeky.

Jayson: 27:11

Aye, that seems like quite an inflammatory thing to do.

Rebecca: 27:15

I'm surprised they didn't get arrested at the time, if that was the case.

Jayson: 27:21

Aye, it shows you just quite how firm a grip the sort of morality police had at this time that Even that was wild for the time. So whilst that caused such an uproar, you've got then in the background this almost underground movement of erotic film. I imagine if that was wider public knowledge, the outcry would have been... unbelievable

Rebecca: 28:01

yeah well we know how bad it was in the fucking 80s do you know what i mean never mind back in the early 1900s like this was like victorian times like people were you know if we if you think we're prude new like despite pushback erotic filmmaking grew early 20th century companies around the world started producing short stag films as they were known mostly for wealthy, upper-class men who could afford to import these clandestine works. Leading the way were the Pathé brothers, who eventually moved operations to Argentina to dodge censorship from the French government. Brothels in Buenos Aires became hubs for early porn distribution across Europe. One of the oldest surviving true pornographic films, El Citario, or The Devil, was filmed in Argentina around 1907. And if you're curious, the full thing is also up on Wikipedia.

Jayson: 28:59

So you had a rewatch of the clip that's available on Wikipedia, didn't you?

Rebecca: 29:06

I did. I did. It was... It was wild, to be quite honest. I was not... Do you know, this being from the time period when it was, I was not expecting it to... It was in black and white, obviously, and it was quite old, so it had quite a lot of kind of... disruption and stuff over the top of it. Like, some, like, static and that. But, outwith of that, if you'd told me that was, like, for the 80s or something, I would have believed you. Not that I've watched an awful lot of 80s porn, but just in terms of... I didn't feel over 100 years old. I kind of started off with, like, three women, like, naked, like, kind of chasing each other about and washing each other in a stream. And... kind of chasing each other through a forest and skipping and dancing about in a kind of circle holding hands and because there were three of them and the thing was called the devil I was kind of expecting this to be like a kind of witchy summoning circle vibe just because it made sense those are the tropes yeah those are the tropes but then another three women came along all naked as well and I was like where is this thing going And then, the next minute, the devil appears. Now, in the Wikipedia entry, he's described as, like, a faun. And I feel like that suits better what this looked like.

Jayson: 30:35

Rather than, like, the devil as we know.

Rebecca: 30:37

Yeah, rather than, like, or even, like, the name of the thing. But, oh, it had such mighty bush energy. It was, like, the full, like, paper mache nose. You know, like, the cheap, like... plasticky no even the plastic wasn't even vented at the time so like i don't know what they used but like the cheap kind of like fur like fabric like stuck to the face is like a beard um and like the horns of course and he's like pure like villain like creeping like with the arms you know the creepy arms like through the forest and like running around the trees and stuff um and then like starts chasing the lassies down and one of them like falls and then they like pounces on her and then they're like straight into like her genome heed and like full 69 like full pnv like it was like proper like zero to 60 like sounds like quite

Jayson: 31:29

pretty like modern modern

Rebecca: 31:32

porn sort of quite explicit quite what you would expect from porn Regularly, like, I don't know why I was expecting, like, Victorian era porn. Aye, this just wasn't what I was expecting at all. Like,

Jayson: 31:44

yeah. It sounds like there's a lot of throughlines from this to modern porn.

Rebecca: 31:51

Aye, like, it doesn't seem to have changed or adapted all that much.

Jayson: 31:56

Aye, the cameras have got better.

Rebecca: 32:00

There was points where it was cutting from them being in the forest to, like... them being in a barn but I don't know if this was because this wasn't like the full clip it was only like nine minutes long so I don't know if there was maybe more to the story that kind of had been cut out over time but all the way throughout it, he was trying to stick his fingers up her arse, and she was batting his hand away. And it was one of them, I was like, is this part of the story, or do you think this is what was actually happening?

Jayson: 32:31

This guy's actually just been a bit of a lech.

Rebecca: 32:35

Because, you know, either could be true, but I don't know, I wonder if, like, even then, you know, anal was maybe, like, a wee bit too far, but, like, a wee hint of, like, it being potentially was, like, titillating enough to be, you know, like, part of the show. Ah, it was being a bit edgy. Being a bit edgy without, you know, going over into, like, too far territory, potentially. Yeah. I, 69 in 1907, own film in a forest in Buenos Aires with Argentinian prostitutes was not how I thought I was going to be spending my Tuesday morning. But, yeah, wild. Another wee factoid that I didn't necessarily write loads about but I found really interesting was obviously the Pathé brothers. Through looking up some stuff about them, I came across the kind of symbol for their company and was like, hold on, I've seen that a million times. What is this company?

Jayson: 33:39

You showed it to me and I instantly recognised it and started listing out films. I'm like, I've seen that. You see that at the start of this film and this film and this film.

Rebecca: 33:51

And we had to look into it, or I had to look into it at the time and then showed you. and they are like a film distribution company who have worked with many famous names most notably and recently being Warner Brothers for like the UK and Europe distribution films so they've done like Chicken Run they've done so many horror films like they did like The Descent what was some of the other ones?

Jayson: 34:19

Chicken Run was the big one that was one I watched quite a lot as a child and

Rebecca: 34:24

because it was like a yellow chicken with Pathy above it that's their symbol and that was like I was like I'm sure that was in a chicken film and when you said chicken run I was like because I remember as a kid being like oh it's a chicken like before it even started but yeah they started in porn they ran like one of the most successful like initial first porn production companies in the world

Jayson: 34:48

they must have really done quite well to end up where they have today

Rebecca: 34:52

yeah

Jayson: 34:54

I wonder how common knowledge that is, that part of their company history, even within the company itself, or if that's something they shy away from. By the 1920s, silent porn films were pretty widespread, but also illegal to possess in many places. It wasn't until the cultural revolutions of the 1960s that attitudes began to shift. Mainstream movies pushed the envelope. A Swedish film called I Am Curious Yellow, where a woman kisses her lover's flaccid penis, caused massive controversy, even getting banned in Massachusetts. But when the courts overturned the ban, it paved the way for more sexually explicit media to enter the mainstream. Denmark led the charge in 1969 by abolishing all censorship laws, including those against hardcore pornography. The Netherlands quickly followed, and this sparked a boom in porn production, with films smuggled across Europe to meet the growing demand.

Rebecca: 36:00

I wonder what they would have made of Game of Thrones back then. Which, to be fair, the penises were still all flaccid, as far as I can remember. I feel like that's a thing. It's allowed as long as it's not hard. Even now, there's still a bit of... That's too sexual at

Jayson: 36:19

that point. It's quite amazing to see comparing modern day mainstream television and just how much sex it's kind of just about shown in modern television and that's fine and normal but going back to you know the 60s we're talking like outrage

Rebecca: 36:51

i wonder right if this is part of because do you know in the 60s most of the time people were going to go and see films when they first came out was in the pictures and it's not to say that that doesn't still happen today but a lot more media, like Game of Thrones is an example of that, is mostly just seen in people's homes. And it's one of these out-of-sight, out-of-mind things where people aren't reacting to viewing this in a crowd of their peers.

Jayson: 37:20

Yeah, it's a bit more, do you know, I think especially with British prudishness, it's a totally different thing to be watching this on your own or in

Rebecca: 37:37

your

Jayson: 37:38

living room versus in a public place with a crowd of people that you don't know and then you're supposed to kind of keep up this

Rebecca: 37:46

I like react how they react kind of thing

Jayson: 37:49

I sort of play the

Rebecca: 37:51

compliance game

Jayson: 37:53

yeah

Rebecca: 37:55

it's interesting I feel like there's definitely something to be said for that Then came the 1980s and the rise of home video. Suddenly, you didn't have to go to a sleazy theatre to watch porn. You could do it from your living room. Porn became more accessible to both consumers and creators. Low budget and amateur films flourished. Niches and fetishes that were once marginalised became easier to find. The era of the big budget theatrical porno was coming to an end. So you can imagine before this, the reason why porn was so big budget was because all film needed to be big budget in order to exist. The time and dedication it took for them to take and develop all those individual film reels and edit them by hand, cut all the frame by frame pieces out and stick them back together the amount of craftsmanship and work and time and labour that went into creating a film. And the equipment. And all the equipment as well. It was outwith the everyday person's capabilities to do. Unless they were really, really into it and it was their thing. The amount of money and time and effort that would need to go in to actually being able to set up a TV studio for porn or otherwise was really outwith the capabilities of the general public at that time. But with the 80s came in not only videos but also camcorders and the ability for people to just make and record films at the touch of a button.

Jayson: 39:41

Aye, so this was like another big step in the democratisation of technology, putting it into the hands of a broader range of people that wouldn't have otherwise had access to those kind of capabilities and who don't have the technical expertise to be working on that higher-end, kind of high-budget film production quality stuff.

Rebecca: 40:11

So that's just generally led to there being a big surge in porn. Yeah. And the demand for it was there already. And if anything, grew at this point because people weren't having to go and put themselves at risk by going to a theatre or something. It was something that they could order from a magazine and get directly to their house. Aye, no have to actually put their face to

Jayson: 40:37

it as such. Aye, it was a lot less... A lot more limited... Interactions had to... Had to happen.

Rebecca: 40:47

Yeah.

Jayson: 40:48

There was less steps between you and porn.

Rebecca: 40:50

And, like, I'm not being funny. Fuck wanking in a room full of other people. Like, that... I

Jayson: 40:55

think they had little booths.

Rebecca: 40:57

They had little booths. But even then, like, the noises. Like, oh, I feel... I feel like that would be enough to

Jayson: 41:07

put you on. Aye, and I think the fear would be getting... Getting spotted as you're on your way

Rebecca: 41:11

in or out. And I'm not being funny. Like, they're probably... if a woman was to show up at one of these places, it would probably be... They probably wouldn't have a very good time with the attention that they would get, I would imagine, in that situation. These places probably would have mostly been filled with men. Yeah. Like, yeah. It would have made it not feel like a safe place to go as a woman. Or anybody of any gender outwith. Kind of just... cis men. Or probably cis white men, let's be honest.

Jayson: 41:47

Yeah. The next technological leap, the internet, changed everything again. No longer did you need to discreetly order DVDs or magazines or videos. Porn was now just a few clicks away. This new digital access was a double-edged sword. While it made porn more available than ever, it also decimated the traditional porn industry. Piracy, amateur uploads, and independent creators undercut major studios, allowing massive streaming platforms like Pornhub to dominate. I mean, this is just like a furtherance of the democratisation. It's putting things more and more into the hands of everyday people. Where, you know, not everybody maybe would have had a camcorder. Once we're into the age of the internet and smartphones, pretty much everybody has a smartphone. They're kind of essential for modern life.

Rebecca: 42:52

Yeah. The amount of places you go these days and you have to scan QR codes to even order food or sign into places and stuff is wild. I don't know how anybody survives without a smartphone these days. Aye. Very difficultly. But yeah, I find it really interesting that the porn industry has had such a rollercoaster over the course of its beginning until now. And reading that, it makes it quite unbelievable that there is still massive porn companies that exist out there that are still managing to survive despite how much essentially free porn exists on the internet these days. I think that goes to show just how much that kind of personal connection is still such a big part of people's consumption of porn in terms of like OnlyFans and people being quite loyal to certain porn stars and certain porn production companies that they are willing to go and pay and support them in that way when they could just watch... It's not just about it being porn. There's still some form of emotion involved in it, in that sense. Or at least that's what I think.

Jayson: 44:18

I'm actually like emotion and personal preference and things. There is so much out there that pretty much everybody's got their preferences covered. There's

Rebecca: 44:36

Aye, I think that's one good thing that has came out of it, is that it's not necessarily been decided by five groups of people that own the big porn production companies. There is a lot more niche and a lot more fetish stuff and that out there.

Jayson: 44:54

Aye, and it's sort of the market kind of dictates the demand for certain things Is there. So then whoever is filling that particular niche the best or in particular ways then succeeds.

Rebecca: 45:20

Yeah. It's created more like a competition in that way.

Jayson: 45:24

Yeah.

Rebecca: 45:25

Yeah. So moving on to the next segment. Challenges within porn. So with growth comes growing pains. Yeah. The porn industry faces serious challenges, ones we still struggle with today. So we actually watched a documentary a few months ago called Is Anyone Up? which was covering a revenge porn site called isanyoneup.com that was quite big in the early 2000s into the 2010s where cutting a long story short it turned out the premise of the site was that people would be sending in videos and pictures of their exes as revenge it was literally they had no... weren't hiding what they were about like it was a revenge porn site specifically but through some investigation by a lot of different people um because they pissed a lot of folk off with this obviously they upset and damaged a lot of people um it turned out that they had been hacking into people's emails and taking pictures and videos from their phones without their consent and uploading them themselves to the site to ensure that there was this constant feed of of content all the time regardless of whether people were sending things in or not and i don't know it was that on itself obviously was horrible but it was quite nice in a way to to know that they were having to do that because even though people were maybe outwardly like supporting them and that they weren't necessarily getting A lot of people that were engaging in that behaviour. The engagement wasn't there

Jayson: 47:37

enough that they had to fake their own engagement. Yeah.

Rebecca: 47:43

It put a wee bit of faith in humanity back in me, watching that. Because it was massive. There was so much content on there to think that all these women... Obviously, I'm not saying it wasn't so damaging to them, like it was horrible what happened, but it wasn't... through people that they cared about and trusted that were doing this to them.

Jayson: 48:05

Which makes it mildly better. It was like an outside attack that was leaving them vulnerable to this. So even sites like Pornhub have come under fire for their lack of moderation. With millions of videos being uploaded, how do they ensure every performer actually consented? how do they police stolen content

Rebecca: 48:26

yeah i feel like this is something that comes up a lot you know i i personally totally support sex workers i totally support content creators i'm in no way saying that this industry is a bad one i just like when you have sites that are so popular like how how are they hiring enough people to actually moderate what is on their site and i think this comes down to even within the porn industry itself do you know how many clips are on Pornhub that are supposed to be paid for clips that have been pirated and stolen and uploaded by people in order to circumvent the paywalls that exist for a reason so that the performers get paid what they're due. It in and of itself and the way that it's moderated is harmful not only from an exploitation point of view in terms of people that are getting stuff posted without their consent but also in terms of the professionals that are having their livelihoods stolen by stuff getting taken from paid for platforms and put on a free streaming site. Feminist perspectives on porn remain divided. Some argue that porn can be empowering, a way to reclaim agency and express sexuality. Others see it as perpetuating harmful stereotypes, reinforcing a male-gaze driven vision of sex that leaves out emotional connection, consent, diversity and real bodies.

Jayson: 49:55

Another huge problem, porn as sex education. Because formal sex ed is so terrible or missing altogether, many people's first exposure to sex comes through porn. Especially when it comes to kink and BDSM. Porn often represents a fantasy version that leaves out negotiation, consent, aftercare and emotional safety. It's fantasy, not a tutorial, but not everyone learns that distinction.

Rebecca: 50:27

This is something, you know, I feel even I've been guilty of in the past where growing up, and we kind of touched a wee bit on this in our first episode, where our introduction to this way of life has been through things like porn and erotica and other forms of media that don't give a true representation of what actually goes on and it's one of the reasons why in that respect I will always be an advocator for like going to munchies going to events like getting involved in the kink community because It's not to say that people are not able to do research and pick up these things by themselves, but...

Jayson: 51:02

But you miss that context that's there in real life.

Rebecca: 51:05

Seeing it in person just gives you a totally different understanding, which is why so many people do turn to porn as sex education, as opposed to the more practical knowledge that we're given in school. It doesn't give you a clear picture. You could... do the research like we have been given but it's not like a true representation of how things how easier it is to pick up things watching what's going on and in this case watching something that's not real going on and picking up bad habits from

Jayson: 51:41

so many of the positions and like camera angles and things that are used in porn is to make it like as visually appealing or as clear what's going on as possible. And for most people, those are not realistic things to be doing in the bedroom.

Rebecca: 52:03

They're not going to give you the most pleasure out of something. Yep. Because they're designed to look good rather than feel good. Absolutely. And there's a massive distinction between the two when it comes to actually having sex.

Jayson: 52:16

So our next segment is The Rise of Amateur Porn. One of the most exciting shifts happening today is the rise of amateur porn. Amateur content, real people, real bodies, real sex is booming. Sites like MakeLoveNotPorn are working to bring love, authenticity and human connection back into the portrayal of sex.

Rebecca: 52:40

Honestly, I've been meaning to buy a few videos from there, partly from research, but also because it's such a refreshing change from the scripted, over-the-top stuff that still dominates mainstream porn. The whole concept behind the site and why I thought it was worth speaking about is something that I've been kind of keep going on and having a look and not really delved into, but I feel like it's something that I'm going to do and will probably have a real dig in to it at some point is amateur porn but the whole point in it is that you set the camera up and forget it so rather than it necessarily being about video and the visual side of sex like video and the connection and the intimate side of sex and that you're trying to capture a moment and forget about the camera rather than trying to capture a scene with the camera as such for wanting a better way to describe that They've probably put it much better on their site. I don't know the concept. I've been thinking about it for months since I've first seen it. It seems so healthy in such a nicer way and a better way of making porn. In the terms of sex education, for example, where you're not then having to go to a play party. to see people being intimate with each other. I think it's such a refreshing viewpoint, getting to actually see intimacy over getting to see acting. And the two definitely have their place and I'm not saying that one's necessarily better than the other. They both serve different purposes and serve different people because everybody has their own preferences. But for me, I really struggle with watching quite a lot of porn because I find it quite fake. and quite over the top quite a lot of the time especially like in terms of like the kink and BDSM stuff like it's always really mild or really extreme like I feel like there's really a missing part somewhere down the middle that's more real and less like either very very professional and strict or people who are playing about and trying some kinky stuff rather than it being BDSM.

Jayson: 54:56

Yeah. You've kind of got it almost being used as an aesthetic.

Rebecca: 55:02

Yeah.

Jayson: 55:04

Or the really, really extreme end.

Rebecca: 55:08

Which has its moments, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that that's not something that I enjoy, but I feel like sometimes I'm missing that intimacy.

Jayson: 55:17

You've got the sort of content that almost as kind of just using Kink and BDSM as an aesthetic choice. Without necessarily it really showing what a dynamic looks like or without it being an actual scene. And then you've got on the other end kind of quite quite extreme, like, tends to be quite high protocol, like, some pretty intense stuff that, whilst both are good, both are good and serve a purpose for certain people, I don't feel like either gives, like, a really good true representation, sets healthy expectations for people in real relationships and people who are looking to get into real BDSM real BDSM relationships I find that it's what exists can be kind of damaging and set people up to fail almost

Rebecca: 56:36

It is a fantasy at the end of the day and I feel like that can get lost in translation quite easily So just for the people at home High Protocol is a more authoritative style of BDSM that kind of adheres to really strict rules, really strict power play dynamics where there tends to be rules and consequences and rewards and there's more of a hierarchy involved than there can be in other BDSM dynamics. It tends to be more kind of traditional, I would say, in terms of what we're describing. I feel like this is why it's showcased in porn quite a lot. It tends to be what people think of when they think of BDSM because it can look more extreme and therefore tends to be more sensationalised within media and it tends to be what is shown. and when it's represented in media a lot of the time.

Jayson: 57:43

Yeah, and for me personally, I found not necessarily the actions, but the nature of the dynamic itself and the expectations that that's it to be the kind of unrealistic part. Because, you know, seeing that and thinking, oh, that's how a dom has to behave. That's how a sub has to behave. There has to be... rules and consequences and...

Rebecca: 58:11

For every little thing, like, not always, but it tends to be very pervasive, very all-consuming, and not necessarily something that could be easily held up 24-7, you know, in terms of... Aye, it tends to be, like, and every single little thing is laid out and mapped and...

Jayson: 58:36

As a kind of beginner... that feeling is very overwhelming going into a dynamic thinking that these are the expectations. That

Rebecca: 58:44

that's what you need to live up

Jayson: 58:45

to.

Rebecca: 58:46

When there's actually a million different ways to do BDSM and that is one part of it. And I don't know that it... I feel like it is unhealthy for the majority of people to try and reach that point. Because it's not everybody's thing. And it doesn't need to be. I think... That was a pitfall I fell into a lot in the beginning where I felt if I wasn't doing that then I wasn't doing enough and felt very like kind of imposter syndrome and very inferior and like am I going to be capable of this and that needed to be the goal that I was working towards.

Jayson: 59:22

It can lead to a lot of insecurity.

Rebecca: 59:24

Yeah and that's the unhealthy bit. It's not the thing in of itself which loads of people that is their thing and that's what they do and that's totally fine and normal if that is what they want and what they enjoy but You don't need to enjoy that to enjoy BDSM.

Jayson: 59:40

I feel like as you're growing up you hear people saying things like what you see in porn is not real life. That's not how things actually work in real life. Or like sex that you see in porn is not a true representation. It is a fantasy. But I find that that sort of context is missing on the BDSM side of things because the only portrayals that I certainly was aware of growing up and stuff was of that style so there's not then that kind of expectation of oh that's just a fantasy, that's the kind of fantasy version of this yeah which I think kind of allows room for unhealthy expectations to grow

Rebecca: 1:00:40

I think it's quite easy when you're grown up you know you're told like as you've said that porn that's not like a true representation but I think with the period as being neuro spicy and no taking the thing and oh it's different like different situations that can apply to for me when I got told that I'm like right that's true of vanilla porn like I didn't necessarily think that that was the case for all porn and as you've said you know growing up and not really having a lot of like things that represent how you feel that was the closest and only thing it makes sense that that would then you would take that on yeah you know as being what your goal was what your aim was going forward and i think kind of circling this back this is where amateur porn definitely comes into its own and that i feel like that is what is filling in this middle point because it's filling a niche

Jayson: 1:01:40

that

Rebecca: 1:01:41

isn't covered by mainstream porn.

Jayson: 1:01:44

And it's also helping to fight back against harmful stereotypes about bodies and beauty standards and sexualities. It's there to remind us that sex isn't just about performing, it's about

Rebecca: 1:01:59

connecting. that that is sometimes missing from kind of mainstream porn so there's even a running joke on tiktok about how conservative women are basically wearing porn star makeup this was a few months ago but i was oh i was buckled at that trend it was great and like honestly looking at it it's no far off and i think this comes from like so many traditional ideas of femininity like big lips, heavy contour, pouty stares, are rooted in male gaze aesthetics that porn helped popularise. Because originally, as we've kind of looked at, historically, porn has been for men.

Jayson: 1:02:38

Yeah, aye.

Rebecca: 1:02:39

And I feel like that's something that hasn't necessarily been fully shaken off in the traditional mainstream porn industry that is beginning to in the amateur side of things.

Jayson: 1:02:50

So with amateur porn, by contrast, it's kind of often challenging that male gaze aesthetic kind of side of things and shown that it can be messy and imperfect and funny and emotional and joyful and just like more real

Rebecca: 1:03:04

yeah more like what sex is actually like for people that it doesn't need to be this performative aesthetic thing yeah that it's being portrayed as because of course it is that's the purpose it's serving